Well my comments were directed at Americans/etc. visiting foreign countries and complaining that the natives don't speak English well. In this case the American is a GUEST in the foreign country.

But are you saying that Australians don't like it when foreigners speak to each other in languages other than English; for example, French tourists speaking to each other in French? If that's the case, Australians visiting France, to be polite, must speak French to each other?

Or are you saying that naturalized Australians who continue to speak to each other in their original languages are considered ill-mannered.  Do Australians really think two native Chinese speakers, just emigrated to Australia, should automatically speak to each other in English??!! Do you think that two Australians who have just become French citizens, when meeting for coffee, are going to speak French together?

This attitude you describe is just another example of the arrogance and ignorance of native English speakers.

But, in any case, my point was about those who COMPLAIN about the level of English of the people they encounter in their travels.

[ Last edited by  Marsupial at 10-10-2007 11:15 ]

I'm not saying all of them are, but some do it, they all thing since these people emigrate to "their" country, they all should just talk in English, instead of their own prefered language, even with their frends, which sounds completely unreasonable and arrogant.

but i think for those who only use english while they travel, they were either ignorant of the situation of a country, as to presume everyone can speak english...or too lazy to even care... lol
but yea, sometimes you(travelers) just need to be aware/prepare that once u reach an unknown teritory, make sure u have the right tools to help u around the place (i'm refering to.. GUIDES)..or better yet.. get a mates(friends) who live locally. free accomodation and tour yippie
^^

well, i remember when i was a kid stying at british boarding schools
when i started talking to my HK buddies in Cantonese, our director of studies would come up to me and say,
"hey you two you come here to learn english."

and my house mates would say, " if you don't speak english then fuck off back to your country."
"why do you come to this country to study?"

then as i got in to Univeritsy in UK.  
it was much better coz too many race.
and everyone just spoke in their languages and it was good.
i never felt intimidated.

finally i am now working for a local firm while the directors are all brits.
we all speak our mother tougue freely at office.
mandarin, cantonese and english, but we're never rude (racist) by talking about others at other peoples backs.
i know it coz i understand all three languages.

Very rarely I would say. I've visited dozens of countries and, with the help of a 'Phrase Book' have attempted to speak a few sentences of the language. My attempts have always been well received as I think they are in England when foreigners try to speak English. Hong Kong is different to anywhere I've ever been. I've heard the same thing from dozens of gweilos who have been here for many years and still can't speak the language. If you try to speak Cantonese  and you're not perfect, the locals will laugh in your face. Sometimes, my wife and daughter will be watching TV and they'll laugh and comment how bad someones Cantonese is - even people who appear to speak fluently will be criticised because their Cantonese is not perfect. There is absolutely no encouragement here for gweilos to speak Cantonese and most just give up very quickly. If people just laugh at you, why bother to try?

Obviously, I'm not referring to people who with a phrase book attempt to make themselves understood in the local language. And, from what you say, it would seem that the English are much more forgiving of poor English usage from visitors. Though, to be honest, with increased foreign immigration, attitudes in the States towards foreigners have changed greatly in the last 10+ yrs.

I had no idea the HKers were so intolerant of imperfect Cantonese. It's as if they really don't care at all if anyone learns their language; or perhaps they clung jealously to their language to maintain their self-esteem in the face of overwhelming western cultural dominance when HK was a colony? - you may rule us, and our English may be funny, but you'll never be capable of understanding our superior culture.

If my first attempts at learning Mandarin had been greeted so rudely by the Taiwanese, I never would have made any progress. Fortunately, I found nothing but support and encouragement from everyone I met. But then the Taiwanese are a very warm people. If anything, I would get pissed off because they were too polite to correct my mistakes. Then there's the fact that virtually everyone in Taiwan speaks Mandarin with some sort of accent.

[ Last edited by  Marsupial at 10-10-2007 11:13 ]

too bad beta is missing in action; otherwise he would have plenty to say

he lived in Australia for a number of years and he doesn't like the place because of race discrimination (he's Chinese)

reminds me of the time when I meet a friend from my home country in Bangkok;

He has been in Thailand for a loooooooooong time;

while at a Thai restaurant, we started a conversation; I spoke to him in Thai and he replied "WTF, we should use Cantonese to converse not Thai"

What do you think?

During one of my trip to Cambodia, at a restaurant in a Hotel/Casino;

3 Hongkongers (as usual loud mouth) were discussing something in their native language;
I smiled when I heard part of their conversation; They were rather surprised becos they didn't know that I understand Cantonese. Moral? Still waters run deep   

another dialect which is widely used in Hongkong is Tae Chiu (???) ;

IMO...

People who move to another country (neutralized) should learn the country's language.
People who visit a country should learn some or at least attempt to learn the language.
People who can't speak more than one language should stfu about others speaking bad English!

I had never thought about it before, but it would seem that HK IS a particularly difficult place for the foreigner to learn Cantonese. English was for so long the official language, and everybody spoke it well enough to communicate.  Cantonese is much more difficult that Mandarin. And until recently, Cantonese wasn't really useful outside of HK. (Even now, I would recommend the foreign resident of HK learn Mandarin rather than Cantonese.)

I can't think of one long-term Western resident of HK who can speak Cantonese, and that can't be a coincidence. On the other hand, I know lots of Westerners who've spent serious time in Taiwan or Beijing, and almost all of them can speak at least simple Mandarin.

And once again, the problem is with people who COMPLAIN, and it's always the native English speakers who complain. You never hear an Italian/etc. gripe about the level of English used in countries they travel to. They've had to learn to make do in a foreign language and know how difficult it is.

long term Western residents who can speak Cantonese are no longer in HK

most are in UK now .....................................

There's this white guy that was born in Hong Kong who works for TVB now, his cantonese is awesome. And therein lies the interesting part.

Chinese people are expected to know English, but when foreigners learn Chinese, everyone thinks its a miracle. Why is that?

I would rephrase that to

Everyone is expected to speak English but when non-Chinese speak Chinese, everyone thinks it's a miracle.

Does that answer your question?

Yeah that.

And Japanese too, but not as much in my experience.

One reason is that they'll receive absolutely no encouragement from the locals. It's as if they don't want us to learn. And when you're working all day, when are you expected to find
the time to learn a difficult language that isn't totally necessary? I've known quite a few guys who spoke good Cantonese but, in every case, they've been civil servants, especially
policemen. They learned because for the first 3 months after arrival, all they did was learn Cantonese for  8 - 10 hours per day. That's about the only way to learn.

I had 3 yrs of classes in Mandarin before departing for Taiwan, and for the first year after arriving, I did nothing but study. The second year I taught 8 hours of English a week. The only reason for my being there was to learn the language. A 40-hr work week in an exclusively English-speaking environment would have made that impossible. If you want to learn languages, never work.

The best way to learn a language is just to immerse yourself into the culture, and have a lot of free time on your hands.

Say...if you're stranded on an island with a tribe speaking jibberish. Best case scenario for learning a new language.

and I thought the best way to learn a language was to get a local girl friend

I dated a Taiwanese girl once.

I guess Taiwanese girls like to scream and moan a lot.

make sure the room is sound proof